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la_loutre

Talk about the "bestiary"

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Hello there.

i'm reading the pdf and at the end there some exemple for enemies.

Reading that part feel so strange . It's so weird to see the stats of the animal for exemple.

They have too much hp (and too hight cr) for some of them, like a cow with 150 hp !

 

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The basis for CR has been modified. In 5E, CR is based primarily on HP and damage dealt. Here, it seems CR is based on various factors depending on the type of enemy. For beasts, the primary determinant seems to be size and how many abilities it has.

Given how vast a departure this is from 5E, if you have experience in that system, a lot of the results will seem weird. And some choices seem weird regardless; dairy cows and draft horses are rather large creatures. The idea that a human can inflict the grappled condition on either seems very curious. That a draft horse can straight up beat a lion in a fight also seems curious. Kittens, regardless of surliness, will have a lot of trouble getting their claws deep enough to damage muscle, let alone viscera. Given the existence of the 'nope-nope' spider, I suspect some of these are inside jokes.

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It'll only take 30 shots from a rifle to put a cow down.  Lol.  Yes, hp is really high, AC is really high and damage is pretty low for some reason.  I really hope that it is something that gets changed. 

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Dairy Cow: AC 15, HP 105 (p 190)

Longarm: 1d10 piercing, dex based, 50 capacity (p 60)

Test 1: Random level 1 character. No dex mod, +2 prof, no other relevant factors.

Hits on 13+ and deals 5.5 hp, adjusted damage 1.925hp. Dead cow in: 55(ish) shots. Our level 1 has to reload.

Test 2: Random level 1 character. No dex mod, +2 prof, automatic weapon (advantage).

Effectively hits on 8+ and deals 5.5 hp, adjusted damage 3.575hp. Dead cow in: 30(ish) shots, but uses 90 capacity. Our level 1 still has to reload and uses a lot more bullets.

Test 3: Random level 1 character with Dex 16 (+3 to hit and damage), +2 prof, no other relevant factors.

Hits on 10+, deals 8.5 hp, adjusted damage 4.675hp. Dead cow in: 23(ish) shots. No need to reload. Observation: Dex matters when shooting.

Test 4: Level 5 character with no dex mod, +3 prof (presuming 3), Attack Specialist with longarms, no other relevant factors

Hits on 12+, deals  11hp, adjusted damage 4.95hp. Dead cow in: 21(ish) shots. No need to reload. Observation: Attack Specialist matters.

Test 5: Level 5 character, Dex 16 (+3 hit and damage), prof +3, Attack Specialist with longarms, automatic weapon

Hits on 4+, deals  14hp, adjusted damage 11.2hp. Dead cow in: 10(ish) shots, but uses 30 capacity. No need to reload. Observation: Someone who's good at killing things kills them much faster.

Test 6: Colonel Cow Killer. Also called Death-of-Cows, Taurus Trasher, the first of his name. No cow lasts long under his withering automatic fire. Level 17, Dex 20 (+5 hit and damage), prof +6, Attack Ace with long arms, automatic weapon, Crosstrained in Organ Targeting, two levels of Vanguard, spent downtime in a Rank 5 Armory.

Basically always hits; average damage of 74hp. Dead Cow in: 2 actions, unless they crit or surge.

So... how many shots from a military rifle from a soldier should kill a cow? The internet has failed me on this one, apparently there have been no extensive tests done. I agree that the idea of a trained soldier firing at a cow for a solid minute before the cow realizes its dead and falls over is a little farcical. But there are definitely ways to make things go faster. The question then becomes, how fast should our hypothetical bullet sponge cow die? How much of an investment should it take to make the cow die faster? Colonel Cow Killer there has used 39 of 120 points to buy those feats, and there are definitely other things that could stack in.

Unrelated: Does anywhere in the book actually list the proficiency bonus for levels? I'm presuming it works like 5E, and there is a reference to levels 1 to 20, but nothing that specifically says 'proficiency bonus increases'.

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Posted (edited)

I feel like the math wasn't done before these decisions were made.

Quote

So... how many shots from a military rifle from a soldier should kill a cow?

One shot to the head from a .22 (which is significantly less powerful than any military round) is the answer to this question.   The odd thing here as well is that SMGs (like the P90) use pistol rounds, not rifle.  It's weird to me that the game is more crunchy than 5e, but then generalizes guns into pistol/shotgun/rifle.  Still, one round to the head from a P90 would kill a cow irl.  

Edited by UberStache

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To do more math on this:

For a character with +2 Dex and +2 proficiency, it will take 21 rounds (on average) to kill a Jaffa soldier in normal armor.  14 rounds bursting.  Much easier than a cow, but still absurd combat length.  

 

Giving a first level PC 22 hp and 18 AC (tactical vest), it'll take 6 rounds (on average) to kill the PC.  

 

There are some serious issues here.  Not about a Jaffa winning a 1v1 against a level 1 PC, but that combat will take ages. 

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2 minutes ago, UberStache said:

Giving a first level PC 22 hp and 18 AC (tactical vest), it'll take 6 rounds (on average) to kill the PC. 

This seems like a feature, not a bug. One of the issues with level 1 5E is the combat lethality, since level 1 characters don't have access to the mitigation options that later levels offer. Nearly every level 1 fight I've seen in 5E either drops a PC or has at least one at 2-3 HP. Here, the excess HP at level one gives the protagonists more breathing room.

10 minutes ago, UberStache said:

For a character with +2 Dex and +2 proficiency, it will take 21 rounds (on average) to kill a Jaffa soldier in normal armor.  14 rounds bursting.

CR1 Jaffa for our level 1 character: AC 12, HP 20. Presuming protag has a 1d10 longarm, without then with automatic. No other relevant factors for protag.

Without automatic fire: 5(ish) rounds.

With automatic fire: 4(ish) rounds (but 12 capacity spent).

Meanwhile, the Jaffa has Dex 12, Prof 2, Ma'Tok, but no other relevant factors:

Kills in 11(ish) rounds due to low accuracy... but decent odds of one-shot on a crit (avg damage of Ma'Tok on crit is 21 hp).

That Ma'Tok still seems pretty darn lethal at level 1. Without giving PCs an extra 10 hp, it looks like any hit has a decent chance of being lethal.

However, it isn't supposed to be a solo level 1 PC against a CR1 enemy. It should be 3-5 level 1 PCs against a lone CR1 enemy. Presuming all the level 1 PCs are equally (in)capable, your fight isn't likely to last more than 2-3 rounds... which is typical for 5E.

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A little breathing room and 6 rounds for a CR 6 "monster" to kill a first level character are very different things.  Add to that, 14 rounds bursting turned into a party of 4 becomes 3-4 rounds.  So a  level 1 party without a soldier should be able to fairly reliably breeze through a CR 6 encounter.  

 

The other aspect of this is that ranged weapons are weak.  You are better off running at the Jaffa and using a greatsword, since now you also get resistance against attacks and have higher AC.

 

In order for there to be a reasonable threat, combat needs to last a very long time, and with no reference to CR.  This also means that combat is not something to be avoided, and any sort of planning is unnecessary.  Combat becomes the easy solution and the Jaffa are the underdogs.

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Posted (edited)

To add to this, look a 1st level soldier with same stats, 24 hp with +2 Con, plate carrier and helmet for 21 AC. Now the CR 5 Jaffa Warrior's average damage per round drops to 2.2.  So, it'll take around 11 rounds.  Almost becoming a coin flip for the 1v1.  

That soldier makes it a melee fight instead?  Jaffa damage drops to 1.38 per round, or 18 rounds of combat.  The soldier's drops by less, down to 1.88 per round, or 21 rounds of combat.  If the character specs +3 strength they can turn the coin flip in their favor (17 rounds).  Either way, it'll take like 2 sessions worth of combat.

Edited by UberStache

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Posted (edited)

Guys, this is just a problem with HP in general. How many bullets does it take to kill a man? One. But if you've got 30 HP you can never die to a single bullet, not even a crit. 

However, let's also keep in mind that characters will be doing more damage as they level up. There's simply no way around the fact that HP as an abstraction makes every attack unrealistically weak. A rapier IRL can kill a man in a single hit. But that's just not possible in DnD beyond level 1 or 2. A soldier who has entered specialist leveling likely purchased attack bumps, ect, so I'll need testing to dial in fight times. Unless we get rid of HP all together, however, we'll simply never have weapons, not even punches, that feel realistic. 

Instead, the GM will need to use description to get to where we want. If the creature isn't dead, it likely wasn't a direct hit, which is in line with a television show. We rarely, if ever, see anyone take a bullet to the head in Stargate. That level of violence just doesn't fit the setting.

 

Edited by Miggidy Mack

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I think the big issue hear is straining suspension of disbelief and (moreso) the gameplay implications.  Most people aren't going to think much about a cow taking 3 or 4 shots.  But 6 RPGs, or having to reload after emptying your magazine into it, and it's still not dead? 

 

5e is a heroic setting.  Much moreso than Stargate SG-1.  Yet the rules here make the system even more heroic than 5e, with higher HP, lower damage and higher AC.

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Well I think that's more an issue of RPGs not being strong enough, which I'll be taking a look at when I get to my equipment chapter revision soon.

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A number of other games make a distinction between important PC-level characters, and easy to kill mooks. Rather than determining the amount of damage such characters can take, maybe it'd be a worthwhile idea to come up with a system that specifies the amount of hits before going down

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