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Class Balance & Redesign

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Posted (edited)

So. I'm giving the classes a good look over and the thing that immediately strikes me is that they don't seem balanced against each other in terms of their basic benefits, with the engineer in particular coming off poorly.

As you can see in the attached image (classbalance.png) where I've given everything a basic weighting based on the least populous option. Even giving the extra proficient skill 2 of the classes get a really generous weighting, that still leaves half of the classes being better than the other. The second image shows how I would adjust the class benefits based on that assumed weighting.

ETA: I've added a 2nd rebalance which is rather more radical and touches each class.

  • The Diplomat and Engineer swap hit die.
  • Shotguns are rolled into longarms and replaced by a 'heavy' category that will handle anything self propelled, crew-served, or otherwise unwieldy such as big machine guns, staff cannons, and flame throwers; Engineers and Soldiers both pick it up.
  • Multitool is no longer a kit -- sorry, but that thing is so basic a child can use it -- while the climbing kit most definitely is as if you try to use that without training you will probably kill yourself or someone else.
  • Engineers and Medics both pick up heavy armour. Those guys roll out into combat zones, you bet they rug up as well as soldiers do (and engineers handling EOD absolutely know about heavy armour)
  • As soldiers have medics with them, they lose medkit to pick up heavy weapons; the scout, likely being on their own when they run into trouble, pick it up in lieu of losing shotguns.

 

classbalance.png

adjustedclassbalance.png

adjustedclassbalance2.png

Edited by 1001100x02
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Speaking of the Engineer, I don't think I'm alone in finding the entire class underwhelming and more situationally dependent than any other.

  1. objects get damaged rather less than characters so skewing so heavily towards HP restoring makes this class less broadly useful than it should be,
  2. that focus combined with long-rest dependent gear modification means you’ve given the class no meaningful interaction with the R&D system which frankly should be this class’s bread and butter.

Now a good chunk of the first issue I’m sure is going to be addressed shortly, but with no vehicles rules and nothing at all in the gear chapter having HP, basically half of the first three levels of the class is currently functionally redundant without the GM making something up on the spot, leaving Engineer characters at something of a loose end when it comes to having something special to contribute. Even when those game mechanics come online, there's little actual variation in what the class does.

The second point is I feel the more significant problem. The broad reach of the Scientist’s Eureka ability just flat out allows that class to trump anything the Engineer is currently able to bring to the table during R&D encounters (and I think that system needs to explicitly mention it's the way through which fundamental SG-1 style activities such as hacking and systemic sabotage are achieved). Might I suggest that instead of it’s current temp HP functiont Whack-It is rewritten to affect R&D results.

Similarly, Planned Obsolescence, while fun. should be reworked to serve as a modification feat rather than as a 5th level ability given its application would seem rather rare. Maybe something along the line of a Scotty-esque ‘Miracle Worker’ where you get to knock off one of the R&D challenges early, or make them with Advantage.

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Posted (edited)

DIPLOMAT

(updated 2020.05.12)

As with the Engineer, I found the diplomat a little monofocused on the hit point buffing so I here's an attempt to round it out a bit, Changes from the original are highlighted and incorporate the revised balancing from this post further down the thread.  Alternatively you could keep the medkit proficiency and drop the hit die down to a d8.

The change to Linguist address a personal bugbear of mine of the universal communicator ease at which everyone speaks english even in the Pegasus galaxy. Getting such a big boost in getting a good translation back at base is an attempt to tie in to the whole players upgrade the base mechanic. I think there's room to bulk out the culture/language rules to differentiate between a working knowledge of a language and fluent/proficient use of it.

ETA: I originally subbed in Motivational Speaking for Word In An Ear at 2nd level because nothing was with other systems. and I was looking for a nice bit of rounding out. I've since relented because I realised I could more elegeantly do that with the pre-existing ability via the inspiration feats (see below) which are currently a little sparse for this class.

ETA: I moved Diplomatic Expertise to 5th level as the doubling of the proficiency bonus to a check feels far more like the crowning achievement of the class than a small bump to the maximum HP output. Rise To The Challenge is the replacement for that particular ability through basically sort-of adding Advantage to the Inspire check via the Tension Die because it seemed a nice hook into that system and serves as a reminder of what's about to come smack the team upside their heads.

Quote

CLASS FEATURES

   Hit Die: d8
   Armour Proficiencies: Light.
   Weapon Proficiencies: Common. Sidearms.
   Tool Proficiencies: Medical kit. Pan-Cultural Wardrobe. Translator.
   Saving Throws: Wisdom. Charisma.
   Skill Proficiencies: Culture. Deception. Insight. Persuasion.
   Starting Gear: You add a translator to your standard kit.

INSPIRE (9 MP)

   As written.

INSPIRATIONS (5 MP)

   As written.

LINGUIST (5 MP)

   Starting at 2nd level, you can decipher the basics of an unknown language with a DC 20 culture check and one week with a friendly speaker of the language. A translator provides advantage on this check. Spending 1 Determination per size of the Tension Die above d6 or conducting this check back a Phoenix Base, it reduces the time to one day.

WORD IN AN EAR (9 MP)

   As written.

FORCE OF WILL (5 MP)

   As written.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT (14 MP)

   As written.

RISE TO THE CHALLENGE (5 MP)

  At 4th level when you roll to Inspire your team mates also roll the Tension Die and use the higher result.

DIPLOMATIC EXPERTISE (9 MP)

   As written but now at 5th level.

 

 

 

DIPLOMATIC FEATS

(Edited 2020.05.12)

Spoiler

ADVANCED TRAINING: DIPLOMAT

   As written.

CALM AND COLLECTED (INSPIRATION)

   As written.

CLEAR FOCUS (INSPIRATION)

   As written.

CONVINCING

  As written.

COORDINATED FIRE (INSPIRATION)

   As written.

DEFENSIVE MOTIVATION (INSPIRATION)

   As written.

ENDURING INSPIRATIONS (INSPIRATION)

   As written.

FORCE OF WILL

   As written.

LINGUIST

   MP Cost: 5

   Requirement: Intelligence 13+

   You can decipher the basics of an unknown language with a DC 20 culture check and one week with a friendly speaker of the language. A translator provides advantage on this check. Spending 1 Determination per size of the Tension Die above d6 or conducting this check back at Phoenix Base reduces the time to one day.

LIGHT OUT DARKEST HOUR (INSPIRATION)

   MP Cost: 5

   Requirement: Inspire ability

   Once per episode when you Inspire you can choose to roll the Tension Die and grant that many Determination points instead of temporary HP. Characters benefitting from this are considered to be inspired until they expend the points or take a long or short rest.

STRONG PERSONALITY

   As written.

WORD IN AN EAR

   As written.

 

Edited by 1001100x02

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I do not have time to write a full response right now but I"d like to echo and support the thrust of this. My engineer is very unhappy. More so since another player joined and went Scout which is what he was considering changing to. 

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21 hours ago, 1001100x02 said:
  • The Diplomat and Engineer swap hit die.
  • Shotguns are rolled into longarms and replaced by a 'heavy' category that will handle anything self propelled, crew-served, or otherwise unwieldy such as big machine guns, staff cannons, and flame throwers; Engineers and Soldiers both pick it up.
  • Multitool is no longer a kit -- sorry, but that thing is so basic a child can use it -- while the climbing kit most definitely is as if you try to use that without training you will probably kill yourself or someone else.
  • Engineers and Medics both pick up heavy armour. Those guys roll out into combat zones, you bet they rug up as well as soldiers do (and engineers handling EOD absolutely know about heavy armour)
  • As soldiers have medics with them, they lose medkit to pick up heavy weapons; the scout, likely being on their own when they run into trouble, pick it up in lieu of losing shotguns.

These changes would certainly make my engineer happier.

Shotguns should be rolled into longarms. I don't understand this idea that shotguns are for less combat oriented characters when I think the only time they're used in Stargate is in some of the most intense combat against the replicators. 

I personally feel there's a need to either provide stats for a few specific longarms from the series with some different ranges, damage dice, capacities. I don't think that's giving the game a combat focus. I think if you ignore handguns you end up with maybe 10 weapons that need stats.

Hard agree on the armour changes. Also think engineers should be able to apply their armour upgrade ability to multiple people without having to buy it multiple times same for weapons. This should be capped in some other way - like, instead of adding AC you should add damage resistance for one type of damage for a few hits - something that can be used in the field. 

You're right, a multitool does not an engineer make.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

ENGINEER

(Last edited 2020.05.13)

This is a version of the engineer that excites me, hooking into a couple of other subsystems while remaining part of one I can only make suppositions about. The class features are based on the more aggressive balancing in the top post.

First Principles is stolen from the Wright origin as part of getting rid of the monofocusing I decry above. It's so damn good, and gets the class involved narratively and mechanically with the whole getting to grips with alien tech idea right out of the, ahem, gate. Also, the name that it had originally been given was just not sitting well with me.

ETA: On a related note, Xenotech Specialist got the flick because there's nothing there for it. When that system is addressed, it can come back as a modification feat. 😳 I am such a doofus for somehow managing to miss what the modification thing actually meant. Okay, Xeno-Tech is back in as it's a pretty core concept for SG engineers to have but it's still moving up a level because it feels like a good half-way point for the class to reach.

Bumping Jury Rig up to 2nd level let me roll Whack It into it to get better value out of the name space the ability sits in. I deliberately left out the action repair as something that can be acquired by feat later once the training wheels are off.

ETA: Elbow Grease hooks into R*D in a way that's very different from the Scientist, and feeding it with Determination makes it feel meaningful.

ETA: Tuneup was moved to complete the stringing out of the repair reliance. Using the proficiency bonus allows it to grow as the character progresses their career without requiring obsessive stat increasing.

Planned Obsolescence was too much fun to give up but it needed to be made part of the narrative structure and not encourage blowing people up as a preferred choice, hence the distraction alternative.

 

Quote

CLASS FEATURES

   Hit Die: d10
   Armour Proficiencies: Light. Heavy.
   Weapon Proficiencies: Common. Sidearms. Longarms. Heavy.
   Tool Proficiencies: Engineering Kit. Explosives.
   Saving Throws: Dexterity. Intelligence..
   Skill Proficiencies: Engineering. Pilot. Perception.
   Starting Gear: You add an engineering kit to your standard gear.

FIRST PRINCIPLES (9 MP)

   They only send the best and brightest through the gate. You gain advantage on any ability check to discern the workings of a device, even from just its schematics or plans.

SPECIAL MODIFICATIONS (5 MP)

   As written.

JURY RIG (9 MP)

   At 2nd level you are becoming an expert at field repairs, even when you have to get creative. When you use an engineering kit you repair 2d8 points of damage instead of 2d6. If you attempt a repair without a kit, you instead grant the damaged item +1d6 temporary hit points; if this brings its current HP above half way it will start functioning again as per normal. Only a single item may benefit from this temporary HP at any one time.

ELBOW GREASE (5 MP)

   At 2nd level, you’re aware that sometimes the only tool for the job is perseverance. When involved in an R&D encounter, once per check interval you may spend Determination equal to the target tech level to purchase a success.

XENO-TECH SPECIALIST (5 MP)

   At 3rd level but otherwise as written.

TUNE-UP (5 MP)

   At 4th level you add your proficiency bonus to the amount of HP generated by checks made to repair or grant temporary HP to an item.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT (14 MP)

  As written.

PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE (9 MP)

    The flip side of being able to fix things is being able to break them in often spectacular fashion: as an action you may either create a booby trap or cause a significant distraction. The distraction will grant disadvantage on a number checks made by the enemy equal to your proficiency bonus. The explosion targets a single mechanical device of the GM’s discretion that when activated or moved adjacent to explodes forcing every character within 5m to suffer 6d6 damage (Dexterity save for half damage, DC 8 + Intelligence modifier + Proficiency modifier). It requires a DC 20 Perception check to notice this trap. Spend 1 Determination + 1 per size of the Tension Die above d6 to activate this ability; the GM may take a level of Exhaustion if you don’t have enough. 

 

 

WRIGHT

This word right here means you're a builder and fixer of things. Yes working out how unfamiliar tech works lets you fix it, but that's just way to niche of a case to fit the vibe of the background let alone the ability name which references an addage for thoroughness.

Quote

WRIGHT

   From the first wheelmaker to expert repair technicians, the wright fills a vital role in any civilisation. Regardless of your people’s level of technological advancement, you’ve learned to approach problems in a thorough and logical manner.

   Skill Proficiency: Engineering.
   Measure Twice, Cut Once: You ignore disadvantage on ability checks to diagnose, repair, or construct devices.

 

 

Edited by 1001100x02
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More data for classes from the test we did. The balancing occurs after level 5- please account for this so as not to balance the classes lower down then get wildly unbalanced after high level, a classic 5e, 3.5, etc, mistake. 

 

3252585E-CB7B-4E31-A233-2B7C886A77DF.png

9477BF10-E806-42C1-B64A-17D7A2188018.png

14D5001B-BEAA-4ED4-AF06-DEDD425523B1.png

CA9299B9-9359-4FCA-9BF1-A64A7999E996.png

11F51EA7-20C7-4C78-9730-414E88A66B0F.png

2A948A0A-0A74-4927-98A3-1C34A38D966B.png

154405B6-05F0-464B-B7EC-C4746C69EA34.png

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2020 at 12:45 AM, Sazeral said:

Great input! Thanks

Thanks 🙂

14 hours ago, Gobekli said:

More data for classes from the test we did. The balancing occurs after level 5- please account for this so as not to balance the classes lower down then get wildly unbalanced after high level, a classic 5e, 3.5, etc, mistake.

 

You do bring up a good point.

There's a lot anecdotal evidence that a significant number of home games never manage to reach level 20 to the point I've seen d20 clones trim classes down to 15 and even 10 levels in order to concentrate the play experience into that more populated area. It's certainly been my own personal experience that they've petered out after reaching mid level if they lasted that long,

Which is why one of the things that really excites me about the SGRPG is the complete abandoning of the ridiculous XP scale of old in favour of the far more compact MP. The choice of semi-classeslessness is also really interesting but this is where Gobekeli's remark hits home for me.

🤔

*does some recalculations using MP values for everything at 5th Level *

  • Diplomat    122 mp  (level vs level: 1 level above average (4th). running total: +avg 4th; -avg 2nd, 3rd)
  • Engineer    123 mp  (level vs level: 2 levels above average (4th, 5th). running total: +avg 5th; -avg 1st, 2nd, 4th; --avg 3rd)
  • Medic    126 mp  (level vs level: 2 levels above average (2nd,5th). running total: +avg 2nd, 5th; -avg 1st, 4th)
  • Scientist    125 mp  (level vs level: 2 levels above average (3rd, 5th significantly). running total: +avg 0; -avg 3rd; --avg 1st, 2nd, 4th)
  • Scout    122 mp  (level vs level: 1 level below average (5th). running total: +avg 1st - 4th)
  • Soldier    122 mp (level vs level: 1 level above average (3rd), 1 level below average (5th, significantly). running total: +avg 1st - 4th)

🤨

That's... not ideal. On a number of levels

To me as a player I don't really want to wade through 5 levels feeling like I'm being overshadowed or conversely doing that to another person on the team as a result of the system -- it's bad enough with extroverted and introverted personalities in various combos but at least can be reigned in. As a GM I need my players to feel like they're equally capable of contributing, and can stand out at the thing their character is meant to excel at.

I prefer purchased ability scores as a game balance mechanism. When I played my first game of 3rd edition, I rolled so disgustingly well on my character's abilities that I was functionally at least a level ahead of the rest of the party in terms of the DCs I could reasonably hit which was great for me but a bit of glory sponge to everyone else. Similarly I think it's going to be less than fun if a party aren't levelling together.

You get your MP and purchase feats at the end of an episode. The diplomat  has saved up to buy an advanced training feat to double as team medic -- bang, 9 mp gone. The scout on the other hand just purchased their second consecutive field hack, hits the magic 10 MP spent mark, and woohoo!  levels up. Our diplomat now has to spend at least 1 story a level down because the cheapest feat is 3 MP, which is assuming that's one they're interested in.

It's a return to the problems of 3rd edition's level adjustmennt and the class specific xp advancement tables of the editions before that. Note here that my problem isn't the price points or that advancement is slower for less benefits,, but that you've made advancement dependent on how much players spend rather than how much they earn

On the subject of those class subset feats I think it's worth noting the following:

  • Inspiration (Diplomat): 5 - 3 = 10 MP
  • Modification (Engineer): 6 - 3 = 15 MP
  • Procedure (Medic): 8 - 3 = 25 MP
  • Discovery (Scientist): 6 - 3 = 15 MP
  • Field Hack (scout): 9 - 2 = 35 MP
  • Tactic (soldier): 7 - 2 = 25 MP

Basically half the classes can buy up their remaining class feats before moving on to level 6. It's probably not going be a thing that happens a lot but it's at least possible and may have a effect of purchase choice thus progression speed.

 

classbalance-MP.png

Edited by 1001100x02

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Plugging in the various MP costs as they stand never got all 6 class feature sections to balance until I hit on change the cost scale of kits, making it linear instead of exponential. Though I don't like it --  especially in a game where you're almost inevitably going to have encroach on the role of others in order to spend your MP -- based on the 5e system I can see why there might be an escalating cost behind picking up new proficient skills the broad capability boast that can entail. Tools, however, don't really warrant it: they're a static boost, some might even argue a form of skill tax. There's also no real reason why you be limited to only picking up 3 additional tools

The other adjustment I had to make was bumping the cost of the hit die up a point to 6.

It balances at 42 points per class.

🥳

So, new feature distribution. Highlights where changes have been made.

  • Diplomat: d8 hit die, extra skill.
  • Engineer: d10 hit die, extra armour and weapon proficiencies, 1 less tool.
  • Medic: d10 hit die, extra armour, longarm proficiency instead of shotgun (which should be under longarm anyway), extra kit, 3 skills.
  • Scientist: extra kit (so much research involves unobtrusive observation and is good protection for the more squishy team member).
  • Scout: drop scuba, gain climbing and medical kits
  • Soldier: extra weapon proficiency, 1 less tool

The medic isn't Janet Frasier. Hathor showed she was a trained (if rusty) longarm user, while Heroes amongst others showed she was rated for heavy armour. This class as part of an SG team is representing combat field medics, US military doctrine stating they have to perform as a standard rifleman until people start getting injured. If you stan Sam "the Falcon" Wilson, the guy who does what Captain America does just slower, you'll remember he's ex Search & Rescue, ie paramedic special forces. Giving the medic and scout both proficiency in climbing and medical kits creates multiple routes to achieving a character reflective of particular breed of operator (also, as lone operators a scout would need proficiency with a medkit where an ordinary soldier wouldn't).

classbalance-new.png

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The issues with Medic class could be avoided simply by renaming it as Field Medic or Paramedic. Also, US military doctrine has no actual medics deployed in combat; paramedics are rather riflemen with either some sanitary certification or gone through a first aid crash course during training. So, they stabilize the wounded, then evacuate them to proper hospitals, where real medics can tend for them.

All the problems you are running into with the Medic class are rooted on the design idea about medic being a cleric of sorts. Congratulations are in order for your efforts in avoiding that pitfall. Keep up the good work!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bahamut_A6M5 said:

Keep up the good work!

Thanks 🙂

MEDIC

As Bahamut says, this class is basically the team cleric. The change to the class features gives them additional survivability while they're tending to the rest of the team. I've really gone to town on the abilities. Having worked out the essential weighting of those various abilities, I'm including them here to help less invested readers evaluate them.

First Aid has been tweaked and grabbed so conceptual function from Man Down. The automatic stabilisation of that ability has been has been shunted up to Stay With Me, because I wanted a really heroic and awesome capstone ability.

First Responder is the class' hook into the Determination system and provides the functional basis of the aforementioned Stay With Me. As the medic character arguing with the bad guy to save the life of their patients is just so fundamental to a lot heroic drama. It also lets the medic act as something of a back up to the Diplomat when it comes to pushing agendas and moral authority.

Orderly Conduct is there for folks who want their medic to engage with the game in ways that minimise inflicting harm on other players, something that Organ Targeting certainly didn't, without having to rely on tech. The disadvantage is there because it's only a 5 point ability and in some systems inflicting exhaustion/subdual damage can short circuit some things so I'm in now way married to the idea of it.

If you check the Medical Feat section, Triage was originally valued at 9 points. It's flavoursome in that it doesn't involve just patching folks up in some interesting way and has some utility, but it's really not worth that much. Moving it up to a standard action instead of a bonus makes the price drop all too easy. It could have stayed where it was originally, but it feels better having Orderly Conduct occupy that sport and letting this sit beside the Procedure.

And thus we come back to Stay With Me which I just adore because who doesn't like someone who can look Death and dice gods both in the eye when the world is crashing down and say "Not today!" and mean it.

Quote

CLASS FEATURES

   Hit Die: d10
   Armour Proficiencies: Light. Heavy.
   Weapon Proficiencies: Common. Sidearms. Longarms.
   Tool Proficiencies: Climbing Kit. Medical kit. Outbreak kit.
   Saving Throws: Dexterity. Wisdom.
   Skill Proficiencies: Athletics. Insight. Medicine.
   Starting Gear: You add a med-kit to your standard gear.

FIRST AID (9 MP)

  Your extensive training in field medicine allows you to rapidly provide aid to a wounded team member. When you use a medical kit, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you heal, and can treat a bloodied team member as a standard action (rather than during a short rest). Additionally, when you are equipped with a medical kit unconscious team members adjacent to you gain advantage when making their Death save (see page @@).

PROCEDURES  (5 MP)

   As written.

FIRST RESPONDER  (9 MP)  

At 2nd level you also add your Proficiency bonus to the damage you heal with a medical kit. Additionally, any time you stabilise a team member or remove the bloodied condition from one, you regain a Determination point, up to your normal maximum.

ORDERLY CONDUCT (5 MP)

   Sometimes patients can be unruly and you need to restrain them. At 2nd level, when making a melee attack or unarmed strike you may choose to accept disadvantage on the attack to inflict 1 level of exhaustion on your opponent instead of HP damage. You inflict 2 levels on a crit.

TRIAGE (5 MP)

   Requires a standard action and now at 3rd level but otherwise as written.

PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF (5 MP)

   As written.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT  (14 MP)

  As written.

STAY WITH ME (9 MP)

   At 5th level, as a standard action when equipped with a medical kit you automatically stabilise unconscious characters adjacent to you. If they have died within a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier, you can bring them back by spending 1 Determination + 1 per round lapsed since death + 1 per size of the Tension Die above d6 to activate this ability. If you don’t have sufficient Determination but the shortfall is equal to or less than your Charisma modifier (min 1), the character is resuscitated but carries a level of exhaustion per missing point that cannot be healed except via long rest.

 

Edited by 1001100x02

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A quick point. So far, in most games I've seen handling medical skills, a constant was a character was unable to provide medical assistance to self. Reasons vary, from wounds being in hard to reach places to pain preventing the character to keep a steady hand. In any case, I'd suggest dropping Physician Heal Thyself and replace it with Guiding Hand (temporary name).

Guiding Hand

As a standard action, a Medic can instruct an adjacent character (assisting character) on medical procedures to help tend wounds or afflictions on the Medic. As long as the Medic is conscious and able to freely communicate with the assisting character (they share a common language or have means to understand each other), the assisting character is considered proficient with medkit tool and Medicine skill. If the assisting character is already proficient with Medicine, she can use  the Medic's Medicine total bonus or hers, whichever is higher.

This effect last for as long as the treatment requires, the Medic is conscious and she and the assisting character can communicate with each other. This effect also applies to a specific treatment; additional uses and Medicine checks may be in order to tend for several conditions (if the Medic is wounded and poisoned, a use of Guiding Hand would allow for a single condition to be tended. A second use of Guiding Hand would be required for the second condition).

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