Scout and Infiltrator

[Iki]

These are my take on the Scout and the Infiltrator. Any feedback is welcome

infiltrator:

 

Hit Die:	10 (1st Level) + D10/Level (5)		1	Level:	Feature:
Combat Proficiencies:	Choose 4		1	1	Sneak Attack	1st Infiltration
Tool Proficiencies:	Choose 4		2	2	Second Story Work	Supreme Sneak
Saves:	Dexterity	Intelligence		3	Cunning Action	2nd Infiltration
Skill Proficiencies:	Sneak	+ Choose 2		4	Uncanny Dodge	Ability Score Improvement
Equipment:	Thieving Kit			5	Evasion	3rd Infiltration

Sneak Attack: You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 1m of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Infiltration: You’ve become especially adept at infiltrating an enemies camp. Choose one Infiltration feat (see page @@) at 1st level and an additional field hack feat at 4th.

Second - Story Work: Starting at 2th level, you gain the ability to climb faster than normal; climbing no longer costs you extra movement. In addition, when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier.

Supreme Sneak: Starting at 2th level you have advantage on a Dexterity (Stealth) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.

Cunning Action: At 3rd level your quick thinking and agility allow you to act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Sleight of Hand, use your thieving tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or Hide action. or take the Use an Object action.

Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 4th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against you.

Evasion: At 5th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects. When you are subjected to an effect that allows a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed and only half damage if you fail.

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Infiltrator Feats:

 

Assassinate: Any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

Cover Identity: You can unfailingly create Cover identities for yourself. You must spend seven days to establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity. You can’t establish an identity that belongs to someone else. Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to.

Cunning Action: You gain the Infiltrator’s Cunning Action feature.

Evasion: You gain the Infiltrator’s Evasion feature.

Houdini: You gain advantage on saves to escape restraints (handcuffs, rope,...)

Imposter: You gain the ability to unerringly mimic another person’s speech, writing, and behavior. You must spend at least three hours studying these three components of the person’s behavior, listening to speech, examining handwriting, and observing mannerisms. Your ruse is indiscernible to the casual observer. If a wary creature suspects something is amiss, you have advantage on any Charisma (Deception) check you make to avoid detection.

Prison Break: You can use every day items (hair pin, nail,…) as a crude version of thieving tools.

Second - Story Work (Athletics): You gain the Infiltrator’s Second - Story Work feature.

Silent Takedown: You silently disable a creature that you have disabled or killed using your sneak attack. Noticing your take down is never easier than Hard difficulty (DC 20).

Sneak Attack (Sneak): You gain the Infiltrator’s Sneak Attack feature.

Supreme Sneak (Sneak): You gain the Infiltrator’s Supreme Sneak Attack feature.

Traceless: You always hide your track in the rooms you passed through. Finding evidence your party passed in urban environments is never easier than Hard difficulty (DC 20).

Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Infiltrator’s Uncanny Dodge feature.

 

scout:

 

Hit Die:	10 (1st Level) + D10/Level (5)		1	Level:	Feature:
Combat Proficiencies:	Choose 4		1	1	Favored Terrain	1st Field Hack
Tool Proficiencies:	Choose 6		2	2	Danger Sense	Survivalist
Saves:	Constitution	Dexterity	0	3	Scout’s Cunning	2nd Field Hack
Skill Proficiencies:	Survival	+ Choose 2	0	4	Favored Terrain II	Ability Score Improvement
Equipment:	Climbing Kit		0	5	Hide in Plain Side	3rd Field Hack

Favored Terrain: At 1st  level you become particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions. Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coastal, desert, forest, grassland, jungle, mountain, swamp, or underground. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in. At 4th level you may choose a new favored terrain.

Field Hack: Amongst the myriad of small improvements you’ve learned, you’ve become especially adept at a trick that improves a team’s efficiency in the field. Choose one field hack feat (see page @@) at 1st level and an additional field hack feat at 4th.

Danger Sense: At 2nd level, you gain an uncanny sense of when things nearby aren’t as they should be, giving you an edge when you dodge away from danger. You have advantage on Dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see, such as traps and ambushes. To gain this benefit, you can’t be blinded, deafened, or incapacitated.

Survivalist: You’ve trained to survive on any world and in any biome. At 2nd level, you gain resistance to damage from your environment, including non-natural environmental dangers like traps.

Scout’s Cunning: At 3rd level your quick thinking and agility allow you to act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action

Ability Score Improvement: At 4th level you can increase your Constitution or Dexterity score by +2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by +1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Hide in Plain Side : At 5th level you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage. Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. If you are proficient in the camo kit you gain advantage on this roll. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.

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Scout Feats:

 

Advanced Training Scout: Unchanged.

Always on the look: Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling through your favored terrain (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.

Ambush: When you Roll initiative, you gain a special turn that takes place before other creatures can act. On this turn, you can use your action to take either the Attack Or Hide action. If more than one creature in an encounter has this feature, they all act first in order of initiative, then the regular initiative order begins. If you would normally be surprised at the start of an encounter, you are not surprised but you do not gain this extra turn.

Animal Companion: You are trained to use a trained animal in combat. Choose an animal that is no larger than Medium and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower. Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals its normal maximum or four times your level, whichever is higher. The beast obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative, though it doesn’t take an action unless you command it to. On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. Once you have the Scouts Cunning feature, you can this bonus action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If the beast dies, you can obtain another one when you visit home base and training 8 hours with it.

Blade Sharpening: Your mastery of grinding, steeling, and stropping adds +1 to the damage of your teams bladed melee weapons. In addition, you do 1D6 extra damage with your melee attacks.

Camp Security: Unchanged

Camouflage: Unchanged

Danger Sense (Perception & Survival): You gain the Scout’s Danger Sense ability.

Efficient Movement: When moving through your favored terrain, difficult terrain doesn’t slow down your group’s travel.

Eye for Detail: While tracking other creatures in your favored terrain, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

Foraging: Add if using this feat in your Favorite terrain double the proficiency bonus.

Favored Terrain: You gain the Scout’s Favored Terrain ability. You can take this feat multiple times each time apply it to another terrain.

Guide: When moving through your favored terrain, your group can’t become lost except by technical or supernatural means.

Handloading: You personally load the standard ammunition carried by your team. Your team adds +1 to the damage of any firearm using standard ammunition.

Herbalist (Proficient in Nature): When you take a short rest to gather different natural ingredients in your favored terrain and you create a First aid or Outbreak Kit.

Hide in Plain Side (Sneak): You gain the Scout’s Hide in Plain Side ability.

Hide Tracks: Add if you use this feat in your favorite terrain increase the difficulty by 5.

Land ’s Stride: When moving through your favorite terrain, moving through natural difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

Ration optimization :Unchanged

Rope Trick: Unchanged

Scout’s Cunning: Unchanged

Skirmisher’s Stealth: You combine speed and stealth in combat to make yourself hard to pin down. You are difficult to detect even if you attack or otherwise take actions that would normally reveal your presence. At the start of your turn, pick a creature you are hidden from. You remain hidden from that creature during your turn, regardless of your  actions or the actions of other creatures. When you have the Scout’s Cunning feature, than you can use that bonus action at the end of the turn to make a Hide Action (Dexterity    (Stealth)) check to hide again if you fulfill the conditions needed to hide. Otherwise, creatures are aware of you at the end of your turn.

Tracking: Unchanged

Trap Rigging: Add if using this feat in your Favorite terrain double the proficiency bonus.

Undiscovered: You can move stealthily at a normal pace traveling alone through your favored terrain.

Vanguard: Unchanged

Xeno Survival: Unchanged

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Iki

[Bahamut_A6M5]

It's just my humble opinion, but infiltrator as a class is totally unneeded. Just like pilot, it's another example of niche class with limited chances to shine in a mission. Not only that, it's also a class with issues to fit in a team not revolving around stealth; most of her abilities seem too focused on working alone. Also, as Wyvern Gaming departs from the heavy combat focus, I suspect they might not be interested in having sneak attack rolling out on their classes, with Scout's Vanguard being the closest to sneak attacks we may expect to see.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Bahamut_A6M5
Typo

[Iki]

Thanks for the reply. I really like to debate on game mechanics and game developement, so any thoughts on that account are very interesting.

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It's just my humble opinion, but infiltrator as a class is totally unneeded. Just like pilot, it's another example of niche class with limited chances to shine in a mission. Not only that, it's also a class with issues to fit in a team not revolving around stealth; most of her abilities seem too focused on working alone.

As I mentionied in one of my other posts you have different type of players (groups or group compositions) and GM's out there. When I am the GM I always try to give my players what they want to play and work the story around there abilities so that every body gets a chance to shine. If you look at the SG1 shows the character of Vala Mal Doran is a sexy thief/con artist, and a lot of the Tok’ra are spies. So their are plenty of examples of characters that work alone (Spies) and characters that use the thieving an decieving path of an Infiltrator. Alsa a good player can use his characters abilities to achieve their goals. Some use their Intellignece and reasoning, others use their charisma and presuasive manners, and then there are those who use their cunning and backstabbing personality to get the job done.  I always remember something that a Navy seal wrote: There is no such thing as a fair fight, never plan a fair operation. Be sneaky, stealthy and do the unexpected.

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Also, as Wyvern Gaming departs from the heavy combat focus, I suspect they might not be interested in having sneak attack rolling out on their classes, with Scout's Vanguard being the closest to sneak attacks we may expect to see.

In my opinion the game as we see it is more game mechanically combat focused as it seems. If you look at the number of combat related feats non-combat classes gain.

Diplomat: 11 feat (combination of feats and feature as feats), 8 of those feats are combat releated

Advanced Training Diplomat : Boosts HP / Primarilly use in combat.

Convincing: Boosts HP

Coordinated fire (feat): Boosts attack power

Defensisve motivation (Feat): Boosts AC

Enduring inspiration: Heal during combat

Force of will: Regain the use of inspiration => Boosts inspire => boosts HP

Strong personality: Boosts inspire => boosts HP

Word in an ear: Inspire as an standaard action / Mostly you go over to actions in combat

Engineer: 12 Feats, 7 of those feats are combat releated

Armorer: Boosts AC of armor

Chem thrower: Boosts range of 1 weapon

Grenadier: Increases damage of grenades

Longarm calibrations: Boosts 1 longarm

Malp Rigging: 1 combat application

Planned Obsolence: Use a machine as an explosive

Sidearm calibration: Boosts 1 sidearm

 

Medic: 15 feats, 11 of those feats are combat releated

First Aid: Heal as a standad action / Mostly you go over to actions in combat

Crash training: Rivives the dead / dead is mostely the result of combat

Embolism: Lets you use your medkit as a weapon

First responce: Boosts healing can heal as a standard action / Mostly you go over to actions in combat

Man down: Automatically stabilize death characters / dead is mostely the result of combat

Organ Targeting: +1d6 damage to bloodied targets

Physicion heal they self: Heal your self as a bonus action / Mostly you go over to actions in combat

Sedative: sedate as a melee attack

Triage: lets you learn a targets curent and total HP and hit dice.

Tranqualizer concotion: Boosts Tranquilizer gun.

Vital organ targeting: increase critical hit damage.

 

Scientist: 13 Feats, 4 of those feats are combat releated

Archeologists: Stuns targets as an action

Biologists: Heals in combat

Chemist: Reaserch kit does 1d6 damage

Physcisist: hits a number of additional targets with ranged attack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Iki

[Bahamut_A6M5]

Vala falls into the "charming rogue" role (like Han Solo); she's not a spy nor an infiltrator (in Stargate SG-1 RPG, Vala would probably have been a pointman). And yes, there are Tok'ra spies and goa'uld asraks in the show but there's a reason all the Tok'ra spying happens offscreen and the asraks play the role of adversary when they appear; the main focus of the show is not undercover operations but exploration and discovery. Most people buying a Stargate based game probably expect to emulate adventures like those from SG-1 rather than playing Jacob/Selmak in every mission.

On 5/30/2020 at 12:29 PM, Iki said:

As I mentionied in one of my other posts you have different type of players (groups or group compositions) and GM's out there. (...)

I would point into this statement there's also a lot of different type of games out there. Meaning, if you want to play undercover agents, Spycraft (first to come to mind) probably would serve you better than Stargate, for example. Same if you want to play a katana wielding martial artist; her chances for success would be greater in a L5R setting than in one where main antagonists use plasma based, ranged weaponry.

On 5/30/2020 at 12:29 PM, Iki said:

In my opinion the game as we see it is more game mechanically combat focused as it seems. If you look at the number of combat related feats non-combat classes gain.

In my opinion, that's not an incredibly high amount of combat related feats. Then again, I am coming from Stargate SG-1 RPG, which had about 100 feats directly related to combat (and those are just feats, not class features. Also, I am not including feats indirectly related to combat, like Toughness). So, I hope you understand the figures you provide to prove the combat focus of the game fall too short in my eyes to be considered combat focused.

Now, some thoughts about your take on the Scout:

On 5/27/2020 at 7:17 PM, Iki said:

Animal Companion: You are trained to use a trained animal in combat. Choose an animal that is no larger than Medium and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower. Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals its normal maximum or four times your level, whichever is higher. The beast obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative, though it doesn’t take an action unless you command it to. On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. Once you have the Scouts Cunning feature, you can this bonus action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If the beast dies, you can obtain another one when you visit home base and training 8 hours with it.

I would change it to Animal Handler: the Scout has advantage when using her Survival skill to calm wild animals or deter attacks from wild animals when unprovoked. Aditionally, the Scout can rear and train animals to perform a limited number of tricks and effectively issue commands so the trained animal execute the learned tricks. Teaching a single, specific trick requires the Scout spend 8 hours a day for a week training the animal. After that time, the Scout checks for Survival (CD 20); on success, the animal learns the trick and can be taught a new one (if tricks points are available) but, on a failure, the Scout must restart the training and spend the required time.

(It would also require for additional ruling, to determine how many tricks an animal can actually learn, such as 2 tricks per point of Intelligence score the animal has. And tricks involving actions an animal wouldn't naturally perform would count as learning 2 tricks, for example).

On 5/27/2020 at 7:17 PM, Iki said:

Blade Sharpening: Your mastery of grinding, steeling, and stropping adds +1 to the damage of your teams bladed melee weapons. In addition, you do 1D6 extra damage with your melee attacks.

The Scout is mainly a guide, the guy suppossed to keep the team alive in the wilderness. I'd change this feature with Woodcraft: the Scout's tricks and techniques in outdoors environments allows her to suplement toolkits with ad hoc made tools. The Scout receive a +X bonus on all Survival checks while on her favored terrains.

On 5/27/2020 at 7:17 PM, Iki said:

Handloading: You personally load the standard ammunition carried by your team. Your team adds +1 to the damage of any firearm using standard ammunition.

Same as the previous. Handloading would fit better Soldier's feature list, even Engineer's, rather than Scout's. I'd suggest changing it for Game Hunter: the Scout adds +1 damage to her attacks performed against animals (creatures with Intelligence scores of 1 or 2).

On 5/27/2020 at 7:17 PM, Iki said:

Efficient Movement: When moving through your favored terrain, difficult terrain doesn’t slow down your group’s travel.

 

Land ’s Stride: When moving through your favorite terrain, moving through natural difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

I'd meld these two into a single one, Trailblazing: the Scout can guide her teammates through hard terrain with ease. Group overland travel speed (not tactical speed) is only affected by half the usual penalty for hard terrain (rounded down).

And I would get rid of that part about "You can also pass through plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard." Sincerely, sounds like some magical shit from D&D druids. And Guide would also follow the same route for the same reason.

On 5/27/2020 at 7:17 PM, Iki said:

Skirmisher’s Stealth: You combine speed and stealth in combat to make yourself hard to pin down. You are difficult to detect even if you attack or otherwise take actions that would normally reveal your presence. At the start of your turn, pick a creature you are hidden from. You remain hidden from that creature during your turn, regardless of your  actions or the actions of other creatures. When you have the Scout’s Cunning feature, than you can use that bonus action at the end of the turn to make a Hide Action (Dexterity    (Stealth)) check to hide again if you fulfill the conditions needed to hide. Otherwise, creatures are aware of you at the end of your turn.

Undiscovered: You can move stealthily at a normal pace traveling alone through your favored terrain.

Again, the same. I would meld those two too. Result would be something like Relocation: the Scout is adept at moving silently, even on the run. The Scout no longer suffer penalties to Stealth for moving at her full speed while on her favored terrains. Also, if the Scout starts a round hidden, she can conceal ranged attacks by performing a Stealth check opposed by Perception checks from any character attempting to locate the Scout; on a success, the Scout remains undetected and can continue acting (attacking, moving, etc.) as hidden.

[1001100x02]

What he said.

At this point I think it's obvious the devs don't see the core book doing anything except emulate the TV series as much as a 5e product can, which means the vast majority of activity is going to be centred around spacecraft, remote enemy outposts, and hiking around the hospitable bits of rural Canada while getting to know the amish-like aliens we hope to free from their servitude to false gods. Interactions with any sort of even moderately urbanised society are going to be unusual and most likely fleeting as the big damn heroes that are the SG teams pave the way for diplomatic delegations.

In the core book.

Said diplomatic engagements, deep cover, rogue-NID off-book ops targeting civillians, and other shenanigans that deviate from the standard format are clearly going to be the basis for future expansions. I mean, they've paid for the licence. Why put everything in one basket?

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by 1001100x02